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Author Topic: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?  (Read 2981 times)

Online Moondog55

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2017, 05:02:39 PM »
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a031488.pdf

http://www.environmental-ergonomics.org/Handbook%20on%20Clothing%20-%202nd%20Ed.pdf

I know my feet will be warm enough in almost anything when I am moving around except for the soles of my feet, I'm trying to look at the whole big picture because it simply isn't possible to get 55mm of insulation on the feet and still do stuff.
Thick insulating foot beds are a big part of getting my feet isolated from the cold sink of cold ground
My personal experience is limited to minimums of -25C tho and it is the next 20 degrees that worries me as at negative 25C in my climbing boots it was the bottoms of my feet that were cold as soon as I stopped moving fast.
There was no room in those mountain boots for thicker foot beds or a frost plug or more than 1 pair of woollen socks
I'm worried about loosing toes naturally
This type of very flexible footwear is totally new  me, which is why all the questions
Our Antarctic people wear the Canadian boot with an extra radiant inner bootie [ personal communication with a mate of mine] but even this isn't 55mm of insulation so how does it all work?

Offline TZBrown

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2017, 08:54:04 AM »
So many things come into play for staying warm in very cold conditions.
In the books you linked they cover them pretty well.
Balancing cold temps, body activity, perspiration levels, calorie intake, and physical condition, all come into play.

If you were outside at -40c with 10 inches of loft insulation fully around your body, with no activity, and no food intake, you would slowly freeze to death. 

When moving you need less insulation due to increased activity, if you have to much insulation you perspire, wetting the insulation and causing failure.  When you stop you add insulation to make up for less activity.
It is the same with footwear, though in very cold temps without excess insulation your body heat can push moisture to the outside, with breathable layers, and freeze it off on the surface of the boot or garment.
You may still capture moisture in the inner layers and need to change them to stay warm.
Another way so keep the moisture from your insulation is a vapor barrier, sock or clothing, but that is a whole learning curve on itself.

I do use vapor barrier sox in my boots, all types, at times when I need to keep the insulation dry from perspiration, it works best in 0f and below for me. but you need to do more foot care at night to avoid immersion or trench foot.

Time spent trying to decode the books you attached will help a lot in understanding the interactions.
Hope that helps
TZ
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Online Moondog55

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2017, 05:01:54 PM »
I think I'm beginning to understand why the big baggy short overpants, shunting warm blood to the feet.
It is my experience with the Sorel Caribou boot [ the one that is used most often here in Australia] that was / is telling me I need much more insulation. Re-reading Hoops article on boots tho I understand part of that, not enough room in the boot for a second insulating insole and not enough wriggle room for the toes because of a lack of internal height

Once I get my head around how much insulation I  need to use I can get them made in a Week-End

I have collected everything I need over the last few years, I've decided on the shape etc.
Maybe all I need is some bright decorative braid and ribbon for decoration

Offline southcove

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2017, 06:34:17 PM »
Maybe all I need is some bright decorative braid and ribbon for decoration

And a pint or two of OZ's best to help smooth out some of the inevitable bumps in the road, mate...

Online Moondog55

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2017, 02:27:48 AM »
I just had a small email communication from Kevin K at Empire who measured the thickness of the Raber liners for me.
3mm [ 1/8th"] doubled that is 6mm [1/4"] so with normal clothing rating 4 Clo per inch this is only 1 Clo, double that for the dead air between the layers and for the shell effect and it is still only 2Clo.
No matter what I sew up I'll have more than this and I am going to stop worrying and just use the blanket material I have. using multiple sock layers like Hoop.


Online Moondog55

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2017, 07:20:26 PM »
Just been exchanging messages with a feller in Queensland that grew up somewhere very cold in the USA, he was telling me about a pair of Sorels with 38mm of insulation in the liners,[[ sounded like the old Snow Bear they stopped making years ago ]] 2 liner booties; radiant plus felt; double layer insoles plus a footbed on the outside that he said were useless at anything over -20F because you broke into a sweat

So how do I combat that without making 2 complete sets of boots?

Do I simply make a pair of -55C boots and wear the leather boots with 2 pair of socks until it gets cold enough to swap to mukluks?
My winter boots are the US army ICB leather boot with the removable Thinsulate liner but a size larger to allow and extra pair of socks and a thin mesh frost plug
Sewing the boots is easy compared to making the choices about what to make

Online Moondog55

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 08:47:05 PM »
Also I am thinking about making my first "trial " mukluks using some acrylic marine canvas I have here; reasonably tough and very breathable but it does unravel readily and I'll need to selvage the edges before I start sewing, luckily The Boss has an overlocker
I have some red leather for the vamp too or some red non-coated Cordura?
Hmmm??
Acrylic isn't very wear resistant, would Cordura be a suitable fabric for a second layer or should I try and get some scrap hide all I'd need would be a foot square? Anybody got a scrap to sell me? 330mm * 150mm twice over
Kangaroo leather is better I know but I have the other already
 Or make the vamp from the acrylic and use the red leather for the sole? That might work??

Online Moondog55

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2017, 01:27:14 AM »
I've been thinking out loud
So I have managed to cut out 3 sets of sole reinforcing from the soft leather I had here already. That leather cost me $4- at the Op-Shop a few years ago so why not use my acrylic canvas and make a trial pair.
I have enough of that to make a few sets too.
The only reservation I have about using the Suntuff canvas is that it is not even remotely windproof [ a good thing in the Marine environment where it is used for awning and such on boats and yachts] and should I laminate/line it with something breathable but more wind resistant
There are no instructions in the Conovers book about ties and lacings, do people put leather/webbing tabs in any particular place?
Also the cotton duck is fairly soft stuff; are the gaiters ever stiffened in the way that the Army mukluk is? or is the canadian winter boot stiffened because the polyester shell of those is light weight and floppy without it?
YES Lots of questions but as I said at the start I've never made these before

Offline Kalvik

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2017, 10:16:14 AM »
Take a look at the Steger mukluks for some ideas.


Online Moondog55

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2017, 08:10:29 PM »
Take a look at the Steger mukluks for some ideas.

Ideas yes but no explicit technical information and I'm at the stage where I need that explicit technical detail

Offline buddhabelly

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2017, 09:15:08 PM »
No offense but you're over thinking this waaay too much imo. Just make a pair and go from there. It may take a second pair to get it right but at least you'll have that experience to make any changes. Use what you can glean from Steger and Empire muks pictures and go from there.

Offline Kalvik

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2017, 10:52:03 PM »
Take a look at the Steger mukluks for some ideas.

Ideas yes but no explicit technical information and I'm at the stage where I need that explicit technical detail

I applaud your love of DIY. Personally, I prefer to spend my time elsewhere and just buy a pair of ready-made's. I don't think you can go wrong with Steger or similar.

Online Moondog55

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2017, 01:07:58 AM »

[/quote]
I applaud your love of DIY. Personally, I prefer to spend my time elsewhere and just buy a pair of ready-made's. I don't think you can go wrong with Steger or similar.
[/quote]
If you understood the cost of international shipping and took into account the current exchange rate .
Triple the cost in US dollars to get the cost to me in Aussie pesos

buddhabelly half of me agrees with you; but not the OCD half, that half of wants to get it perfect first time and better than perfect for the second pair.
Blame a lot of the questions n using the same words to describe different things in our separate countries. Wool frieze for example is about a quarter the weight and warmth of our woven blanket cloth and I still have trouble with insulation this light and will be using something much heavier; partly because I have it.
Our "Duffle" is a very very stiff fabric just shy of felt and quite thick, at least 1/4" / 6mm and over here it is called "Bluey' because  the chemicals used in the felting process dye it dark blue in colour.
A lot of the questions I ask were me thinking out loud and I did apologise for that early on, it was helping my thinking process.
Would appreciate some advice tho on whether the wind blowing through my mukluk bottoms is bad thing or a really bad thing so i can either change the fabric or layer it with something

Offline GearFreak

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Re: Mukluks and moccasins? Shaped or not?
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2017, 12:24:02 PM »
This thread reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2zJOryHKQ
 ;D ;D

I lack your patience Moondog, but I do admire your thought process - were you an engineer by trade?

Put 3 Loops mid way on the sole and at the heel between the uppers and lowers. as for wind - breathability is good if warm but muks usually are not worn when warm or chance of damp snow otherwise they wet out.  That is why steger and others come up with the crepe/synthetic sole.

I have had three pairs over my life - one I was a wee lad and wore them once we moved to the city - destroyed them.
second was white rabbit fur - outgrew and destroyed.  both were authentic beaded ones from up north.
last pair I made and documented on this forum - I will wear them out eventually as well.

I never mind when my gear gets worn out - when my clothes get so worn they loose function.  Muks will get destroyed if you use them.





 
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